DC Drama, not the TV kind.

[ickaimp]

Long story short:
Knightus and MagicBulletGirl used to date. It was cute, they'd flirt inbetween translations and edits of new Conan chapters.

They broke up. It's been tense since then.

Occasionally I talk to either of them by IM. Knightus usually rants about MagicBulletGirl is ignoring him and not listening to his requests. MagicBulletGirl occasionally growls that Knightus won't leave her alone, but usually talks about homework, RL and various shoujo scanlation projects she's working on.

Long story in 'TL:DR' format:
Last month, someone on Knightus' cbox was using some of my artwork as an icon. I asked several times for them to stop, having the foul luck to catch them while they were offline. Knightus caught them online and repeated my request. They did so, they and I talked and made amends.

Two weeks ago, Knightus persistently asked me to talk to MagicBulletGirl to get her to stop her stealing his scanlations and posting them on her site, based on the fact that I was 'the only one she would listen to' and he 'had done me a favour', so I should pay him back.
I do not like being forced into the role of intermediary, but if something hinky is going on, I like to know. So I said I would look into it.

This is what I know.

MagicBulletGirl's site does host the full run of Detective Conan manga, as both the original translations by various translators and the re-edits, seeing as she helps organise the re-edits and does quite a few of them herself. On the case downloads page, she credits many people who contributed to the DC scanlations, including "Miyano and the rest of the Conan Scanlation Team." (Miyano is the current main translator at Knightus site)

On Knightus' site, MagicBulletGirl's name is not listed anywhere. This confuses me because I know MagicBulletGirl provided the original raw scans for over a year, and continued to work as an editor until Knightus took over that job a few months ago.

Back to MagicBulletGirl's site, unlike the other sites I know of that host and distribute Detective Conan manga, she has it divided up by cases, instead of volumes or chapters. Personally, I thought that was kinda cool.

I downloaded a few cases, found them to be the same ones I had already, no changes or edits, and with the credits still on there. Knightus' name is listed on the scans, where he put them. (If this is not the case, please send me the links)

-I shrugged, came to the conclusion that MagicBulletGirl was acting as a manga distro for both DC and other series that she works on. I know five other sites doing the same thing for DC and he's never complained about them.
So I went on with my life. Knightus had announced that he was studying for his LSAT and would be offline for the foreseeable future to concentrate on that and I decide to leave him to it, as this would probably be a distraction. And I'm a coward.

This past Wednesday, I was up waaaaaaay late typing that day's NaNo fic, MagicBulletGirl and Dogmatix helped me stay away while chatting about various things, mostly weather and music.

Thursday morning, I get an e-mail (note: I have changed her RL name to 'MBG' for privacy reasons):

---

29 Nov 2007 10:35
Regarding MBG's taking scanlations...

I gathered from your latest post on impfics that you might've had the chance to speak to MBG last night...

She is still taking the scanlations from my site and posting them on her own, even a file I clearly marked as not to be distributed without permission. And still ignoring my requests and communication, and it's not only getting old - it's really plain not right.

I was hoping you and I would be equally bothered by this... please help me out here? You're the only person who can speak to her I know, icky...

~Knight

---

... anyone else's hackles go up at that opening line, or is it just me?
Does anyone know what 'file is not to be distributed'? Has anyone seen any postings saying not to distribute the manga chapters? That should be a matter of public record, should it not?

My response:

---

29 Nov 2007 12:18
Re: Regarding MBG's taking scanlations...

Query... Do you not want MBG acting as a distro for the Knightus Team Manga Scanlations, or do you not want anyone at all distro-ing the Knightus manga scans?

-Icka!

---

My primary concern at this point being if he does not want his scans posted anywhere else at all, or if this is a private vendetta against MagicBulletGirl.
If it's the later, I don't want to have anything to do with it.

His response:

---

29 Nov 2007 19:50
Re: Regarding MBG's taking scanlations...

Well - In short, I don't want any person who disrespects a member of the group or myself, such as for example by not giving proper credit or ignoring their requests, hosting the scanlations - MBG is someone who has done both of those things.

So - it comes down to respect for me, though another issue I'd have is if a site hosted them without a clear warning that it was for evaluative or educational purposes, as some sort of replacement for Viz's CC mangas, but that's secondary to me really...

~Knighty

---

.... So it's not the distro, it's the fact that MagicBulletGirl 'doesn't respect him'.
I decide to hold off on saying anything, as he has the LSAT's this weekend and I did't want to distract him from preparing from that. Also, on the off-chance that he fails this exam, I do not want to be used as an excuse.

This is re-enforced by several posts on his livejournal about studying for the LSATs.

-Conversations between MagicBulletGirl and myself have not been posted because other than a case of trolls breaking out in her c-box last week, she hasn't really talked about him. Therefore there is nothing to post.

Friday night, I come home real late to find this e-mail:

---

30 Nov 2007 23:08
Never mind...

This Kid case seems to have opened an opportunity to make things "fair". ^^'

Best,
~Knightus

---

Several hours earlier, MagicBulletGirl had posted scanlations that she and a friend had done of file 631 to her livejournal, from scans she had done from Shonen Sunday.

Knightus had taken these scans, removed her scanning credits and website url from the front page, altered some of the text and posted them on his site with the header of '*Whistles*'. It now reads 'Translated by wagamamako at Endless Youth.'

You can compare the two scans page one here: MagicBulletGirl's, Knightus'.
The rest of the chapter is the same, although the zips alter in that MagicBulletGirl's contains a high-res Movie 12 poster that she also scanned in and Knightus' does not include this.

Wank broke out on Knightus' c-box. I have a copy of the tail part of it, it's rather high-tempered. There were two parts that Knightus said that I thought were interesting.

One was Knightus demanding that his name be put on the front page of her site, and next to all of the scans his team has done, because otherwise people don't know he did it until you open the zip.

.... aside from when multiple translators are working on the same chapter, like in One Piece, Tsubasa or Fairy Tale, has anyone seen a Distro put the name next to the zip? End of the zip file maybe, but not next to the link.

Two, was his comment that he hasn't talked to her in two weeks.

-please see that link at the top of the page, 'Knightus won't leave her alone'. Note the dates.

Also, wasn't he supposed to be studying for the LSATs today-?

Trolls have continued break out on both Knightus' and MagicBulletGirl's c-boxes. Usually with poor spelling.

As per Knightus' request, I have looked into his accusations of theft. This is what I have found. Please draw your own conclusions.

-any comments or responses, please Do NOT character bash. Trolling is not welcome here.

Thank you.

Comments

[kosaginolegion.livejournal.com]

*sigh* I hate situations like this. It almost never ends up with any good results for anyone.

It is, I think, fair that MagicBulletGirl credit all of the members of Knightus' scanlation team. It's equally fair that Knightus credit all of her work as well.

If neither are willing to credit the other on their respective web page then they both should remove raws and/or scanlations that the other worked on - whether or not more than that one person had something to do with it. And since scanlations depend on raws, I would say that if the raw came from the other, the scanlation ought to be removed as well.

In any event, I hope something can be done to calm things down. It's not a very high hope at the moment because I know that when a RL break-up occurs the people involved seldom manage to overcome the hurt feelings very quickly.

Again, *sigh*

I really much prefer the TV kind. D:

[dagronrat.livejournal.com]

. . . "icky" ? >_o

"Does anyone know what 'file is not to be distributed'?"
I don't recall any specifics, but I do recall the phrase being thrown around. Not that it's a phrase I much like in general. *sigh*

"an opportunity to make things "fair". ^^'"
*trying not to think of the phrase "all is fair in love and war."* *fails*

*Shakes head.* I'm just going to continue staying back from all of it (have had my fair share of 'web-drama' kthx,) and patiently enjoy any news I find of the other Drama (the TV one).

No fun anyone being in the middle, though. Wish it were resolved.
*huggles Icka*

[ysabet.livejournal.com]

Hm. Several thoughts here...

1) Sounds like this is a severe mess based not on people's work but on resentment and a chance to get even.
2) Sounds like nobody's going to win in this case, no matter what. Impartiality can only work if all parties respect the idea, which clearly isn't the situation; poor Icka.
3) Sounds like your own best bet is to stay as clear of all the mess as possible; when people start flinging horse-shit, they usually don't care if other people gets spattered as well. And wow, there's a lot of horse-shit here...
4) You've listened, you've looked it over, you've presented what you've seen. Several possible outcomes spring to mind: that Knightus will refute everything in a spray of self-righteousness (he likes to talk; probable), that he'll take some form of revenge by retroactively invoking one or more of LJ's current abuse-reporting rules (possible but exceedingly trollish and immature), that he'll stalk off in high dudgeon and ignore everything (unlikely), that he'll post his own rant (highly probable), that all parties will act like mature adult and decide that what's done is done and stop being asses (severely unlikely), that a future post will be made about how dreadfully the stress of the situation brought down the LSAT scores (depends on how he does)... and many, many more. We'll see, won't we?

(The above is *not* meant to be character-bashing, mind you; I *did* mention the chance of people acting like mature adults. These are possibilities.)

I don't envy you. Or Bex. What a mess. But so far as I can see, you've looked at the facts and presented them fairly. Personally? I think the matter should just be dropped and those involved should just leave well enough alone, use what scans/trans he and she had up to their breakup, and *DAMN* well not steal anything off future posts for 'editing'. Do I think this will happen? Hell no. 'A chance to make things fair', huh? Wonder what he'd say if *he* had been in Bex's place? Gee, I think I can figure it out without much effort...

Okay, enough ranting on my part. Just... what a mess. Sorry you got dragged into it; as your flatmate, I've heard a lot about it from you, but this is the first time I've really read the posts and so forth; I think your post speaks for itself pretty clearly.

[candy--chan.livejournal.com]

I respectfully disagree with kosaginolegion on two points, though I understand where she is coming from.

First--if MBG worked on scans, she has just as much right to host them as he does, and vice versa. The eruption with File 631 comes from the fact that it looks like he took it, edited the first page only (to remove her website), and posted the file.

Secondly--the crediting issue. I can think of two websites off the top of my head that host the scans without crediting ANYONE, whereas MBG credits the team collectively. I find the complete lack of credit to be far more disrespectful than crediting the team as a whole instead of individuals. If it is such an issue of respect, then shouldn't the effort be concentrated on these other sites? If not, then...it really seems to boil down to a personal vendetta, at which point any claim to respect becomes invalid.

This Kid case seems to have opened an opportunity to make things "fair". ^^'
Have two wrongs suddenly started equaling a right? This baffles me.

I'll stop there. Thank you very much for taking the time to do all this research and assemble this post, Icka *hugs* Hopefully this can all somehow be resolved.

[kosaginolegion.livejournal.com]

I'm not disagreeing that MBG has a right to post the scans, as she worked on them. I do feel that all folk involved in a scanlation, whether it be the one who did the scans to the one who does the work of creating the scanlation should be publicly credited on the website where it's posted.

The fact that there are sites that don't credit the creators of a scanlation doesn't mean its okay not to.

My point, such as it may be, is that if Knightus wants his work acknowledged on MGB's website then he too must acknowledge her work on his.

Do I think this is likely to happen? No.

[candy--chan.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying that it's okay not to credit. What I'm saying is that he seems to be up in arms about it on her site (where it IS credited to the team) while ignoring these other sites (where there is NO credit to anyone), and to me, that makes this reek of nothing more than a personal vendetta.

She was credited on his site, but he removed it in spite of still hosting scans she worked on, whereas she still credits the collective team. I'm aware that this is a two-way street. But as you said, it doesn't seem very likely to happen.

[kosaginolegion.livejournal.com]

The thing is that the credit appears to be on the scanlations themselves, not the site. Now if MGB does credit the team *on the web site* then he doesn't really have a leg to stand on. If she doesn't, then she ought to and *more importantly* so should he.

I should note, by the way, that I definitely think he's got no legs at all to stand on when it comes to what he pulled with the Kaito scan. If he removed all reference to the fact that MGB had anything to do with the raw or the scanlation then that's not even remotely a case of "turnaround being fair play", because AFAIK, she never removed his name or the team name from any scan on her site.

I'm of the opinion that Knightus is more at fault than MGB. I'm also of the opinion that the best way to deal with a problem like this is by standing on the high-ground. Knightus was complaining that he doesn't want someone who doesn't credit him to have his stuff on their site. Therefore, if she credits him he no longer has that objection and if he continues to argue against her right to distribute then he's the one who's being petty.

[candy--chan.livejournal.com]

On her site (http://www.conan-magic.com/) if you go to the Case Downloads link where the manga scans are hosted by case, the scanlation team is credited right at the top of the page: "...and Miyano and the rest of the Conan Scanlation Team."

I agree on the Kaito scan--that was low. He didn't even credit the translator until a couple of us (myself and another person) called him on the complete lack of credit, at which point he changed his news post to credit wagamamako. Before that it said *Whistles* And he actually admitted in the c-box that doing that seemed the best way to *not* credit.

I also agree that Knightus is more at fault--but he refuses to really admit to any wrongdoing. She has come right out and said that she wasn't blameless in the situation. Regarding the credit, he wants specific credit to *him* on the main page of her site AND next to all the zips--which leads to the question, "What about the rest of the team?" Especially Miyano, the translator. No mention of whether he would credit her on his site.

I hope this can somehow be resolved peacefully, but...I'm not holding out hope.

[kosaginolegion.livejournal.com]

That cite on the web might be enough if there were no underlying problems going on. I'm just saying that if Knightus actively had a part in the scanlation process then perhaps it isn't sufficient to leave it as "The Conan Scanlation Team", as that does leave her open to the accusation of lack of credit. Credit everyone on the team no matter who and be done with it.

And, lordie but Knightus really shouldn't have done what he did.

Not holding out hope either. Nuhuh. Icka has my complete sympathy.

[candy--chan.livejournal.com]

She actually does credit him directly on the "Re-Edit Project" link as the scanner of some of the original raw scans she has on her site. On the download links for the translations she credits the translator, Miyano. So he has been credited specifically for the scans of his that she's using.

And while I'm not saying it's right, it's "pot calling kettle" if he's not crediting her on his site for her work--particularly after he removed her website from the front page of file 631. His site is still listed on all the other scans she's hosting. Two wrongs don't make a right and all.

It's all turned into a big mess. I have a lot of respect for Icka for doing this and presenting the whole situation in such an objective manner.

[kosaginolegion.livejournal.com]

I agree it's the pot and kettle situation. Keep in mind, though, that I'm proposing the citing as a potential solution and nothing more.

ie. Let both of them create a single page that cites all contributers, including each other, to the projects and stop the rest of this nonsense entirely.

I saw that someone was posting nasty comments on MGB's cBox. Terribly mature, whomever it was.

*pats Icka*

[candy--chan.livejournal.com]

That's a good idea, really. Make one page, list all the contributors, link it and go on their way. It would meet some of Knightus' present demands...

There was trolling on both sites, but they popped up on her site first. And Knightus was actually commenting on it on her site while it was going on. So...bad form on both sides.

*applauds Icka*

[ytak.livejournal.com]

I've seen a few of the posts between the two. I didn't know about the, ah, scanlation issue, however.

I pretty much agree with ysabet. And that you are being pulled into it... ouch. I admire your objectivity, considering it all. I'm afraid I can't really add anything that will help you.

[tinitinytina.livejournal.com]

Having fallen completely off the face of this earth in terms of DC and scans, I'm not at all familiar with this situation.

But you seem to have done a very thorough and unbiased job of looking into this, and as far as your facts go, it makes me feel that MBG hasn't done anything wrong. Despite personal issues, she's carrying on as she always has with credits, and Knightbus is probably just still angry at her.

I think you should go with your gut instinct and just excuse yourself from this mess.

[hakaisha.livejournal.com]

Wow, I have the vague impression that this shit storm had been a long time in coming...I do vaguely recall you and others referring to this a while back, but that's about all. Have I dropped off the face of DC fandom so thoroughly? O_o

...never mind. I have.

Agree with pretty much everyone else; I'd say stay out of it. Reading your summary I'm more inclined to side with MBG, who is--if not completely blameless regarding how their relationship fell apart--at least acting with grace/dignity/something along the lines of good-will in regards to the usage of the scanlations. If nothing else, that trick Knightus pulled with the Kaito scan (and I'm personally not that amused with the thief parallel) was just low.

...anyhow, I can't think of anything else intelligent to contribute. I must say...one hell of a sticky situation you're in, Icka. *hugs*

*goes and buries herself back in pile of final-exam-studying*

[tdei.livejournal.com]

I've gone through your post and the comments. I feel you've presented the case and facts objectively, although I only know of the situation through the facts you've mentioned here.

Due to the fact I have never noticed, in the hundreds of scanlation zips I've gone through, a necessity for individual crediting outside of the zip files (with the possible exception it's on the scanlator's own site where all staff members are listed), Knightus' demand (as I understand it-- which is that his name needs to be placed on her site and next to his scanlation links) is excessive and goes beyond reasonable need. He has remained in citation in the usually required location for credits (inside zips), so his claim of plagiarism is null. Zips can be distributed through IRC, email, blogs, messaging systems, etc.-- ways beyond normal distro sites and such; so as far as I know, 'properly credited' means credits remains in the zips. (I suppose if there are no credits in the zips, then the standard is to tag a team name to it or include a txt file.) Demanding special treatment, especially from someone he is known to have a personal problem with, makes his argument of 'stealing' without 'proper credit' rather poor.

Which is still a weak and invalid excuse to plagiarize from MBG, even if he were in the right.

I would suggest you think about what sort of requests he has been sending MBG and whether or not she has even attempting to address them by saying she has credited them according to all reasonable need as this might help positions seem a bit clearer. I also think Knightus' complaint of "stealing" is slightly vague in that I don't know whether Knightus' beef is he's not credited or that she has the files. ...which you did sort of address in the "you don't want anyone distro'ing or just MBG. And he tried to not seem petty by giving a subjective requirement but ended up kind of petty IMHO with that answer.

Personally I would suggest this: If K or MBG had any part in creating the scanlation, they have the right to handle it as they please irrespective of the other's wishes as long as acknowledgment of the other's part in it has been given. K has not done this, MBG has. Or if joint requirement is required to distribute the file, then neither one should have the right to distro unless both agree (meaning since they have drama, only a third party can do it); I doubt they'd go this 'fair' route though.

But if either one had no part in a scanlation, then they would have no absolute right to distribute the chapter. Unless they got permission from the group to distro their work. Otherwise they absolutely shouldn't redistribute if 1) the group forbids anyone without permission from them to do so 2) the group forbids distro in specific conditions [i.e. without credit, from so-and-so group]. In a open-ended situation, people typically use the credits and discretion route... like with fanworks, etc. So if Knightus would cut the bullcrap and just state (with the okay from his team) MBG and her affiliates are not permitted to distribute scanlations done by his team (applicable only where she did not do any of the work) and ask her/give her the chance to remove the files, I think it'd make things simple and clear. The reason why he won't let her might be petty, but if it's his team's stuff, then he technically has the right to control what's being done with it.

MBG could just save the space and direct visitors to the appropriate d/l links from other sites (hey, she can even add to straining Knightus' bandwidth, assuming it's open d/ls over there).

Sorry if this is a bit messy, I'm tired and can't word things elegantly.;;;

[yamipenguin.livejournal.com]

*winces* Ouch, I wouldn't want to get stuck in middle of that. I for-see plenty of flame wars in the near future...

(frozen)

[knightusmaximus.livejournal.com]

I only wanted to provide some additional pieces of information (I'll avoid giving opinions/commenting on statements):

The addition of "Miyano and the rest of the Conan Scanlation Team." credit was placed, at most, only a couple days ago. The original said only "credits to this collection go to people like Jane, Pat, Blink, the original MangaViewer guy".

Credits that aren't new are placed under 'Scan News' (a misnomer, I know). The link is http://conan.wagnergrp.com/news.html and is always accessible when the viewer is open. All of magicbulletgirl's works are properly cited. I do need to update it, clearly. The reason she is not listed on the team page at the moment is because she has chosen not to be a member and it was updated. I'd be happy to include a list of former members if it's in any way her request.

(Regarding the raws: I originally hosted her raws on my server, as you know, and still do... there were about 10 of them in a row, I believe, Files 555-564 or something to that extent. All of them credited of course. They're accessible on Go-Show Raws, http://www.wagnergrp.com/raws/, which can be found on the Linker under Links.)

Since you wanted information on modifications or deviations, I'll only passingly mention that scans on her page also have modified versions of the original raw or scanlations. I'll give as an example file 606, which I bought and scanned: the original raw that was released can be seen on my site
[ http://www.avionicknight.com/V58-Reader/File606/A1.html ].
The english version that I released was here:
[ http://www.avionicknight.com/V58-Reader/File606-EN/A1.html ].

The one she made (a deviation of my scanlation) places a giant "Detective Conan Scanlation Team" credit over my website's URL. The read.me's I provided at the time asked for the raws' credits to remain untouched.
[ http://conan-magic.com/cases/Camel_A_Criminal.zip ] or [ http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7742/file606001eg6.jpg ]

I have done something similar as well, clearly, with my latest actions. And I regret doing so. Though the earlier precedent for deleting URLs from scans was established by her and not myself, in any case... two wrongs didn't make a right. I realized that when I could think through things rationally.

Ultimately it comes down to this, at least in my mind... If I purchase a raw with my own money and go through the trouble of editing a scanlation, I do believe I have a right to request that it not be modified or distro'd, selectively or otherwise, especially when not given clear credit. Magicbulletgirl has this exact same right. I will happily do whatever she requests, not host the scan, keep it untouched, anything - if requests can mutually be acknowledged across both lines. It is is hard to setup lines of mutual respect when the grave has been dug very deep, so I think it requires looking forward instead of backwards.

[Please don't engage me in an argument here; I completely agree with anything negative you have to say with me or how I handled this situation. I'm not a good diplomat. I have knee-jerk reactions just like all human beings.
I do know one thing... it's painful to see something you put money, sweat and time into freely taken by someone who won't credit your name or acknowledge your existence. It's painful, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. That's how I feel. If you wish to flame away, please do so at my email, but not on this lj. Thanks and best wishes to all.]

(frozen)

[knightusmaximus.livejournal.com]

Addendum: I have restored her scanlation to its original form... I hope that we can move forward in the right direction, respecting each other's requests... it may not be easy, I've certainly made my share of mistakes along the way. (To ysabet: I do know why I posted it originally. Regardless, I've never been interested in establishing myself as faultless - so you can also believe what you wish).

[ysabet.livejournal.com]

**rolls eyes while reading above comments, including the one which was deleted a moment ago about never intending to host what was taken from MBG's stuff (a difficult feat in and of itself)** You just keep telling yourself how amazingly harmless and faultless you are, Knightus; go right ahead. Somebody'll believe it, I'm sure; there are fans of martyrdom everywhere, really there are.

...well, at least one...

'Never intended to host it'; jeeeeeeeze. Right.

(regarding K's later edit of his own comment: Of course I'll continue to believe what I believe; if I didn't think it was true, why would I believe it in the first place? It's all this lovely 'editing the truth' that I have problems with.)

[nightengale.livejournal.com]

I'm here to give Icka!-hugs. *HUGS*

Re: Regarding

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

2 Dec 2007 17:31
Perhaps you could include the additional information in the original post, Icks?
Thanks. -Knightus

---

No.
There is no 'perhaps' about it. I will not.
By including your 'additional information', I would be taking your words and saying that they are mine.

When I post, especially a post like this, it is my words, my integrity, my honour that this is what I have found to be true.

And I HIGHLY resent the implication that I would compromise that by including your words.

Especially since I do not trust the words of a person who would send someone else to what amounts as their dirty work. You are the one who asked what no friend should ask of another, to be involved in the midst of a quarrel between two friends.

I am done. I have washed my hands clean of this matter.

If you wish further contact, you may do so it -here-, in public, where there shall be no more of this 'he said / she said' debacle.

[saitaina]

I've just got to say, I'm glad you turned tail after your investigation because this is a mess NO ONE should get into, and it's going to be floating around for a while after (maybe not publically, but the feelings of dis-trust, questioning and second glances will be there).

Personally, just as a fan who reads the scans and has no contact with either side except random passing by...I feel rather...well, betrayed is a strong word but it works, by Knightus' actions regarding the Kid file. I read it when it was credited to only wagamamako and I had accepted that as truth (I have this weird thing of reading all the credits, so that if I ever get a chance I can thank the people who work hard to bring me my Conan fix), and now that I've essentially been mis-lead, it makes me question other credits and wonder if I can really trust what Knightus says.

But again, I am not friends with, nor even passing associates to anyone in this drama (but yourself of course), so my feelings on the subject aren't really important. I just feel really bad that you're caught up in it (or were at least), because you don't deserve it.