Late Night Conversations are Fun: Pickling

[ickaimp]

So it's after midnight and what is Icka! doing instead of sleeping or writing crackfic?

... on chat, discussing murder mystery plots. >_>

So, does anyone know how well a body would be preserved if it was stuck in a resonsably air-tight container filled with something with a high alcohol content?

Would that pickle the body, or would it end up like a tequila worm?

Comments

[jeva-chan.livejournal.com]

Well, what kind of alcohol are we talking about? If you mean liquor and such, then probably like the tequilla worm. If you mean like rubbing alcohol or something similar to that, I'd have to say more like pickling. But actually, I'm not completely sure.

Since it mentions ethanol in the Wiki article for pickling, you might want to default to that answer since it's known to be used in some alcohols?

[mmoneurere.livejournal.com]

Ethanol isn't just used in some alcohols -- ethanol is the "drinking alcohol".

So maybe you could say that the body would be "pickled like a mezcal worm."

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

Hmm... now I'm kind of wondering about bloating...

Thanks! Will look into this further! ^__________^

[ytak.livejournal.com]

Great, now you have me wondering. After reading the articles, I would say something like the worm. I wonder if that sort of thing has ever really happened? On Crimelibrary.com, there was a killer who preserved bodies in barrels of alcohol but they don't say the result (http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/history/bela_kiss/3.html).

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

*face palm*
I completely blanked about Crimelibrary. Thank you!!!

[ytak.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. I forget about it too until somethin reminds me of it.

[candy--chan.livejournal.com]

I know that the ancient Egyptians used to preserve bodies in honey...but I have no idea about alcohol. But now I'm wondering about it o.o

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

I knew the honey one, there used to be a series 'Sherlock Holmes in the 24th Century' where his body had been preserved in honey.

... sugar is also used as a preservative, and sugar is part of the fermenting process for alchohol.

[ryuutchi.livejournal.com]

Alcohol can be used as a preservative, yes. Snopes discusses it [here] (http://www.snopes.com/horrors/cannibal/tapping.asp)

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Whoo-hoo, those are some fun stories. XD
My google-fu was lacking severely last night, I kept coming up with various vegetables. ^^;;

scarred for life...

[yamipenguin.livejournal.com]

*shudder* Aw man! Now I'm scarred for life! Gomen nasai-but I didn't really want to think about dead bodies...One time I was watching this movie-Love music, Love to Dance. The killer put his victim's body in this ice box. It was kinda like a coffin, only white, and it make me think of those places where murder victims usually go, so the coroner can do autopsies. So I think a body can be preserved in an ice-cold place. I dunno on anything else.

Re: scarred for life...

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

That's the fun about writing murder mysteries... plotting creative non-mainstream ways of killing and hiding the bodies. ^____^

And people wonder what that pleasant smile is on my face while I'm riding the bus.... >D

Disclaimer: amateur chemist with only a single class of microbio

[hakaisha.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth, honey used to be used as a preservative because its water content is so low that it discourages bacterial growth (but it has dormant bacterial spores).

If it's just pure alcohol (I would guess probably methanol, as ethanol--drinking alcohol--probably isn't as easily obtained in high purity, and while bacterial fermentation in wine just turns the fruit sugars into alcohol, I've no idea what it'd do to a human body), it would probably retard the decomposition. I'd imagine it'd turn out like the worm (side note: people eat those?! O_o), as I think the absence of water (since you mentioned high alcohol content, and I know high purity ethanol can be used as an disinfectant), brine, or otherwise acid would not give the picking effect (and again, I've no clue if the random bacteria would produce lactic/acetic acid required for the pickling effect while undergoing anerobic respiration).

If you really want to preserve it, I'd advise adding formaldehyde or some other similar preservative to the methanol to obtain maximum preservation. (The ratios of the chemicals I've no idea, though.)

Re: Disclaimer: amateur chemist with only a single class of microbio

[hakaisha.livejournal.com]

Oh, also...I'd imagine that the alcohol (with or without formaldehyde) method would probably not bloat, because its the aneraerobic respiration of bacteria in fermentation that produces carbon dioxide, which would bloat a body.

Formaldehyde, in particular, would not only kill bacteria but also freeze proteins in a body.

Re: Disclaimer: amateur chemist with only a single class of microbio

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

Okay, that was one of the major things I was worried about, was the bloating... *whew* I hate bloated bodies, those really are the worst.

And hopefully, this way the bodies will be recgoniseable when theyr'e found.

We're thinking about drinking alcohal, because it's something that you can get in large quantities without needing to go any place special, and no one thinks twice about it, other than wanting to be invited to the party. ~_^

Re: Disclaimer: amateur chemist with only a single class of microbio

[hakaisha.livejournal.com]

I think, if it came down to between methanol or ethanol, as long as it's really concentrated (like, 90+ percent alcohol in the make-do embalming solution) it wouldn't make a difference. However, if you're using drinkable liquor (at least, that's how I read it as, since you mentioned easily obtainable and party favourites), the bacteria in it is certainly capable of ananereobic respiration and thus producing carbon dioxide and thus induces bloating. I'm not sure if they get rid of the bacteria before selling the liquor, but I'd guess no, because that'd require cracking open the bottle of wine/beer/whatever one just spent the last x amount of time fermenting. And a body would provide ample sugars for said bacteria, if it's still alive, to metabolize into carbon dioxide and whatever anaereobic bacteria produces. (I'm so not made for microbi.) So I would not recommend using something obtained straight from a liquor store to use as preserving fluid.

So if one wanted to use ethanol/drinking alcohol, and want it to be inconspicuous/easily obtained, either one has to buy the alcohol from some source (for example, I could get high purity ethanol when I was doing lab work, which uses it as a solvent). Of course, that's more traceable; if you want more layman's source of high purity ethanol, I'd recommend someone going into a liquor store, buying a crapload of the cheapest stuff with the highest alcohol content possible and then purify it later; ethanol's boiling point is around 80 degrees celcius, so with a little finesse, one can probably distill some liquor at home to obtain a higher purity ethanol--enough to preserve without bloating.

Does this help any? =)

(Oh, saitaina, formaldehyde is not in drinkable liquor. It's poisonous; at low concentrations it's an irritant.)

Re: Disclaimer: amateur chemist with only a single class of microbio

[hakaisha.livejournal.com]

...And I hit submit before I realized that this is a murder, and the murderer would probably not be putting much thought into preserving bodies as long as it doesn't smell too badly in a short amount of time and would thus just use whatever's convenient and available. >_> Scrap the distillation then. (Sorry, chem geek coming out.)

In that case, I'd think just a caseload of the strongest alcohol one can get their hands on. Hell, even high purity isopropanol (rubbing alcohol) can probably do the disinfectant trick, and is probably easier to obtain in high purity (can just buy it) and wouldn't have the anaerobic bacteria problem.

[saitaina]

I agree with hakaisha, though if you are using drinking alchol, you have to remember you're now introducing other bacteria's into the body that, without the formaldehyde (which I don't think is in drinking alchol, but I could be wrong), would cause bloating.

Hmm, wonder if the body farm ever did research on this.

[btailweaver.livejournal.com]

I don't want to be the person who discovers that the body was hidden in that beer barrel they just cracked open. O_o That'd be like.....

...like biting into the apple and finding half a worm. Only worse. x_x Ghrk.

^_^ Oh well, I don't drink! Not my problem! *dances off*

[mariechar.livejournal.com]

Hm... so air tight container would mean anaerobic bacteria, esp since alcohol (assuming we're talking about drinkable tequila-esqe alcohol :P) comes from fermentation of said anaerobic bacteria. I once heard my Microbio prof say that since anaerobic bacteria cannot totally metabolize sugars, the waste product woud be a waxy/soapy substance, a but like jelly-fied human flesh (there goes my appeitite for jelly now..) so basically the overall appearances of said body would be preserved, but would be pretty yukky and slimey.