Archery Rant (it's my journal and I'll rant if I want to)

[ickaimp]

When I first joined the Tir Ysgithr Archery program, I was warned that Archery was the SCA's red-headed stepchild.

I laughed. Partly because I -am- a red-headed stepchild. But also because I couldn't think of an event where archery -wasn't- involved in Southron Gaard. Heck, we managed to set up archery at an event in the backyard of a church once, next to the hardsuit/rapier field and shot when they weren't on the field. And pretty much everyone, including the stick jocks, came and took a turn shooting.

I couldn't imagine Archery -not- being part of the SCA.

And then I got active in the SCA Stateside. Wow. Culture shock. Suddenly Archery was the exception, not the norm.

It took me a year to figure out why. It was an off-handed comment at Southern Crusades.

What we have in our hands when we fire a bow and arrow, is the mediaeval equivalent to a gun.

That satisfying 'thwip THUNK' sound when an arrow flies cleanly off the string and embeds itself halfway up the shaft in the butt? That's dinner, the difference between your family eating tonight or not. That's a dead man on the battlefield. And if you're firing a longbow? That's an arrow through armour. Plate mail, om nom nom nom.

Suddenly a different mindset, isn't it? Target Archery is the only SCA sanctioned lethal weapon. There's no blunts on the tips, there's no rattan wrapped in duct tape striking padded leather or metal. It's a projectile with a sharp metal tip flying through the air at speeds faster than you can most likely move.

In the States, a bow and arrow treated as a firearm. The main protection we have is our heads and our safety regs, making sure the pointy end is pointed -away- from people. Archery can only be done where it is permitted, which means outside of cities. You can't do it in the park next to the fighting field.

Meeting times are irregular, due to we can't shoot when there's other events. It also costs us $5 per person every time you want to shoot. Plus equipment. It's not something many of us can legally practise in our backyard (unless you live outside of the city), and certainly can't go down to the local park every week and do for free.

But despite all this, we have a pretty good Archery group here in Tir Ysgithr. We're a small, fun-loving, cheerfully blood thirsty group who love to show off our string bites, talk about garb and drag other people into the history of Archery.

On Tuesday during Fighter Practise, when I approached one of the people running for Baron and Baroness if they were going to come out and visiting other Baronial Martial Program, the blank perplexed look and response of "I hadn't thought of it. Maybe. It's awful early in the morning, isn't it?" was a bit of a surprise.

Ye-ah. That explains why no one's been out to practise to get our vote, doesn't it? Except for Thyra and Frohdi and that one couple who showed up for a half hour at the first day of practise four months ago and has hence been known as 'that one couple who showed up for a half hour at the first day' because we've never seen them before or since and can't remember their names.

Last night, I sent an e-mail out about tomorrow's practise being the last chance for people running for Baron and Baroness to come out and rally for the archer's votes before polling. Didn't expect much to come of it really.

This morning, there's notification that some members of the press are coming out to Archery tomorrow. Suddenly, this week's practise is OMG A Big Deal and people are totally showing up.

Hands up, guesses on how many Baron and Baroness hopefuls are going to be there now? *facepalm*

So, yes. C'mon out and support your Baronial Archers more than just at the Start and Stop of the Season, even if it just because the media is there.

But unless you're stepping up to the line to shoot, do it from behind the safety zone.

Comments

[thyririgain.livejournal.com]

{loud throat clearing} I beg to differ on one point

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

Bah. Went to delete comment to add amendment and you beat me to the response. Sorry!

I think you and Frodi the only ones running who have had anything to do with supporting the Archery program at all. None of this was written with you in mind.

This was mostly to clear my head so that I don't go snapping at the people who will be showing up for the first time to archery since Raze-A-Village, talking about how great the SCA is and how everyone comes together to support each other. The double standard that everyone is expected and encouraged to show up to support the stick-jocks at Fighter Practise, even if we're not fighting, but no one shows up to do the same for the Archers gets to me occasionally.

It was the general attitude of the other people running for B&B that has my hackles up. Especially since at least one of the couples for sure will be there due to the media, when it was highly questionable before.

Yeah. Real show of priorities there.

[thyririgain.livejournal.com]

I understand. And it did to me too for a long time. But here is something for you to gnaw on just a bit. When we have a champion that will not show up for anything that isn't archery related how do we expect others opinions to change if our own archers don't show the same thing they are looking for?

Adding ot the Rant??

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry for this coming in as Anonymous, I do not normally post to LJ.

I will be submitting recommendations to whoever our new Baron and Baroness is for some changes in the expectations of the Archery Champion for the very reason you mentioned. We can not get even him to come out and promote archery so how can we expect the other Marshal Arts to take us seriously.

Lady Þyri, I have been continuing your battle with the attitude and perceptional problems that seem to come with Target Archery.
Part of the problem is that the Heavy Fighters do not like Combat Archery and do not make a clear distinction when they are expressing their opinions (or do not make the distinction themselves) so others who hear them just lump all archers (CA and Target)in one category.
Part of the problem is that, as Icka stated, we can not have archery at 99% of the events and even when we can, Target Archery is stuck out on the back forty where even the water bearers don't go, let alone the pointy hats and the rest of the general populace. When the Royalty dose come out to shoot at an event like Estrella, it is on a special day set aside just for them. Do the Royalty that fight heavy only fight on a special day with other Royals and not get out there with the common folk?

And a big part of the problem is with the Target Archers themselves who only want to go to events that have Archery and are not willing to get out there and let the rest of the world know that there is a third Marshal force in the Kingdom and help promote archery.

All of this puts a wall up between Target Archers and the rest of the SCA and it is a hard wall to knock down, but it is one that we all need be aware of and keep chipping away at.

YIS

Johannes

[thyririgain.livejournal.com]

The exception to this is you, megs, Fergus, Johannes, John Fair and his lady, and me and frodi

[dqbunny.livejournal.com]

Well, even my appearances at archery practice have been rather shoddy as of late due to my job loss. Let's face it - when it comes down to $5 for archery practice or a meal and you're out of work, you choose the meal.

I am curious though, does this attitude toward archery exist anywhere else or just in BTY? I haven't made it out to the archery practice up here yet because it's so far from my temporary location.

[elinor-dear.livejournal.com]

Two Words: Combat Archery

Real archery seems to be just fine. However, combat archery kicks up a big ol' hissy fit among the masses.

Not sure about other states/kingdoms, but Arizona/Atenveldt has a sordid past when it comes to archery. You can skim through the Aten Yahoo Listserv to see what's been said in the past.

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

That's a major part of my annoyance, the Barony doesn't even -have- Combat Archery, yet the ghost of it is casting its deep dark shadow on the current archery stuff.

Like the BTY Target Archery program hasn't had enough problems in the past few years. ~_~

[thyririgain.livejournal.com]

I much as I have been able to tell its prevailant all over but the harssest comes from here.

[lferion]

Haven't Frodhi and Thyra been there? I'm (hoping) to be there tomorrow! Not because of the press, but because I want to get some shooting in :-)

[bigdee.livejournal.com]

Bugger... archery, and especially target archery, is easily the most authentically period activity that still happens in the SCA. Hand-made bows, hand-assembled arrows, linen bowstrings - it's basically completely unchanged, with is pretty fantastic imho. On top of that, it's a form of completely friendly and non-violent competition that doesn't exclude or restrict participation the way heavy combat does...
And yet it still gets shunned by a large swathe of the SCA?
Priorities indeed.

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

A lot of the shunning in SCA has to do with the confusion between 'Combat Archery' and 'Target Archery'.

Combat Archery, the archers dress in armour and are on the battlefield. There's a lot of sniping that goes on in this form of archery, and hardsuits complain about 'they travelled hundreds of miles to attend the war and get taken out in the first minutes of combat'.
IE: Combat Archery is seen as cheating by those who use swords.

Add to that that the safety regs on Combat Archery is -not- standardized across the board. If you're a Combat Archer and have spent quite a bit of money to get your combat arrows blunted and made for combat in your Kingdom, you can cross lines and discover that you can't play because your arrows aren't legal and therefore not safe to use in the next Kingdom. (such as the wire mesh behind the metal grill that I saw in NZ is not used here)

Target Archery has nothing to do with the battlefield, and firing at usually fixed targets such as butts. But because of the massive physical separation between Target Archery and the other events that go on, a lot of people never see Target Archery in action, much less know it is going on.

Combat Archery is seen and more visible. Therefore, Target Archery is often lumped in with Combat Archery as general 'Archery' and thereby shunned.

-at least this the explanation I have been given by those who have been playing the game Stateside for much longer than I have.

But you're right, the history and styles of archery is something I enjoy a great deal. We've had debates about approaches to archery within the group, between a guy who does archery as a general hobby and uses a light bow because he can fire more, and those of us who are working on increasing our bow strength as well as accuracy 'incase the world ends'. ^^;;

[bigdee.livejournal.com]

Yep, the combat archery debate (in the US, and its offshoots down here) is something I've followed with a bit of interest and a lot of facepalming. I've seen many an online rant by "knights" who honestly believe that no-one in period ever died from being shot with arrows. Others who state that they intend to hurt combat archers as badly as possible during combat. Even one who claims that medieval archers were all peasants, so he should have the right to treat SCA combat archers like shit both on and off the field. The whole thing just reeks of both thuggishness and childishness...

The way I see it, keeping archers in combat helps to add realism and strategic challenge to war events. It's also a great way to make use of the considerable skill and experience of the archers who train for so long, off the field. Since archery's one of those few western combat arts that never actually died out, the SCA should be doing its utmost to embrace and promote it.

:D Also, as you say, archery's a superb post-apocalyptic talent to maintain. *mental image of guy with rattan sword confronting an elk*

[reynier.livejournal.com]

Blarg... wanted to get something more researched posted, but I have a very ornery puppy on my lap.

@ earlier comments: The term peasant has no official recognition or use in the SCA. Heck, I'd bet there's media policy out there *against* using it as a label for any members (will digz up later). That said, I understand that it used to be the common term for those who didn't have an AoA yet. So if the folks bigdee mentioned are treating combat archers poorly b/c their historical predecessors were peasants, then by the same logic, they should be treating every new face to the SCA with equal disrespect. TheirFaceMyPalm

[shenya.livejournal.com]

Particlarly disturbing comments to hear coming from knights, who really shouldn't be treating people like shit on or off the field.

[bigdee.livejournal.com]

Also: omfg that icon

[snotblossom.livejournal.com]

Okay, I've spent a lot of time on the hardsuit field as a non-combatant. I've seen blatant assholery on both sides of the issue. The problem a lot of heavy fighters have with combat archers is that they don't seem to want to play the same game as the rest of us. When a combat archer's weapon fails, someone is much more likely to get hurt, and odds are good that that someone is going to be a non-combatant. Crossbows have a hell of a lot more range than sticks and that means I have to stay farther away so I don't get hurt, and that means I have a harder time getting water to my fighters. I've seen hardsuit fighters dodge an arrow and then step in to claim the kill (merely pointing their weapon and stating, "You're dead m'lord") only to be met with a cry of, "That's not fair! You didn't let me re-load!" No, they wouldn't have in period either, and they would've clobbered you to boot. Hardsuit fighting is NOT period. It's not supposed to be. It's supposed to be safe. It's really hard to make it that way with projectiles of any kind.

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

Combat ass-hattery aside, that's my point.

Combat Archery does NOT equal Target Archery. They are not the same thing.

WE DO NOT FIRE AT PEOPLE.

[elinor-dear.livejournal.com]

Yes, but you're using the A word! OMG! The A Word!

Perhaps if you changed it to Personal Ballistics?

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

... but I like the word 'ass-hattery'.... ;_;

('personal ballistics' sounds like we're putting people in trebuchets and launching them! XD *laughs*)

[bigdee.livejournal.com]

Flinging dudes out of trebuchets is, apparently, a perfectly period way of disposing of unwanted guests!

This is why

[(Anonymous)]

This is why it bothers me that way to many fighters do not make the distinction between Combat Archery and Target Archery. Combat Archery and Target Archery are two TOTALLY different things. The only commonality is they both use bows.

Recently standards have been adopted at the society level for combat archery to help improve safety.
See: http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/docs/marshal_handbook.pdf
VII. WEAPONS STANDARDS > subsection F. Combat Archery Bows/Crossbows on Page 15. These do now specify society wide standards for both the Bows and Ammunition for Combat Archery.

While this should help with safety issues and with the problems of Combat Archers traveling to another Kingdom for an event and finding out that their equipment does not meet standards, it does not do anything with the general dislike of Combat Archers or the tendency of lumping Combat Archers in with Target Archers.

I know of an instance, in our Kingdom, where a member of Royalty (and the Chivalry) called an archer a peasant, in a degrading tone of voice. The Archer was carrying his bow on his way to the archery field at Estrella. The other white belts that heard this high ranking person, just laughed and seemed to think this was highly amusing.

It is this kind of attitude that needs to be changed and it needs to start at the top.


Johannes

[basal-surge.livejournal.com]

Funny really. Down here in the southern hemisphere, not a war goes by that doesn't have between 15 and 30% of the combatants combat archers, and we love it (even our chiv). All it takes is mesh on your bar grill and 3/4 inch blunts, and we've proven the safety time and again, and still US based rules changes keep getting foisted on us to try and stop it. Very annoying.

[bigdee.livejournal.com]

The thing I liked most about the old rules was how non-exclusionary they were. The limited gear needed by combat archers made it was easier and cheaper to get started. Archers' non-contact status meant that people who can't fight heavy, perhaps due to injury or disability, could still take part in combat. Losing that was a pretty big blow, I reckon.

[lil-1337.livejournal.com]

*hugs* Youse wants me to go make them swim wit da fishes? *has been watching way too much film noir*

Mine is an evil laugh.

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

*snickers* Just keep them -behind- the firing range instead of in -front- of the firing range and I think everything'll be okay. >D

In the meantime, chocolate.

[swordmage.livejournal.com]

Damn you, Icka. For once again making me want to get out and try archery. (And it's not like I couldn't borrow stuff - Arion's promised if I want to...)

Then again, also looking at trying rapier, and need to sew more, and *sigh*

So much I want to do - so little time!

ew. knobs.

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

At least with Archery, the main protective gear is fairly cheap in comparison. ^^;; And while finding enough arrows to be able to shoot with may be troublesome (we've lost a LOT in the past year) we can certainly loan you bracers and gloves or fingertabs!

We've only got 14 archery practises this season, so it's not a huge time commitment, really. The occasional Saterday from 9 (or whenever people show up) to about noon-ish. ^____^

Re: ew. knobs.

[swordmage.livejournal.com]

I'm honestly hoping with the more straight-forward schedule for school I'll be able to try more out.

But it looks like so much fun!

Re: ew. knobs.

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

The schedule should be posted on http://www.btyarchery.org/ (although the day listed for polling is wrong) if you're looking to check dates.

The next practise after this is 31 Jan, then there'll be a pause for Estrella. ^__^

Re: ew. knobs.

[swordmage.livejournal.com]

Enabler. *grin*

Re: ew. knobs.

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

Well, duh. *laughs* ^______________^

-We've actually got a couple of fandom people who show up regularly as well. Conversations often get a bit... um... randy. XD

Re: ew. knobs.

[swordmage.livejournal.com]

Evil, evil, Icka...

Re: ew. knobs.

[dqbunny.livejournal.com]

Aaaand as another enabler, my bow is still with Johannes and it's very easy to use ... *shoves her toward Icka* TRAP HER!!!

Re: ew. knobs.

[(Anonymous)]

Not sure what calendar you were looking at but the date is correct on the BTYArchery.com website. It does show January 17.

Johannes

Re: ew. knobs.

[ickaimp.livejournal.com]

My bad, been doing too many resume stuff and read it wrong. Sorry!

[xenogram.livejournal.com]

Who would have think it? 'Mericans against guns. And not just any 'Mericans either. Big*, read-meat eating, stick swinging, macho-men are afraid, AFRAID, to line up and shoot each other. They basically lack the GUTS for real warfare.

I'm capitalising again. But it's an interesting line to take with them, don't you think?

* Heavy is such a descriptive term where a lot of these men are concerned.

[tantei-hakuba.livejournal.com]

I NEED to get into SCA when I move, it always sounds like so much fun (plus, pointing sharp sticks at targets! Better then pointing loud gun at a target in my backyard and getting hit by the re-bound).

[fyliwionvilyaer.livejournal.com]

Oiy yeah watching noobs at archery always kinda makes me go o.O... course archery's the only weapon/sport I've had a natural knack for... I'm just... er... terrible at anything that needs coordination usually but for some reason long bows and I really get along. I wasn't aware of half those laws tho ^^;; 'course I'm pretty certian Texas doesn't have the same laws (i've been to several shooting rinks I'm 99% sure are in parks in city limits tho I did have to get permit to carry bow across campus when I got to college....))

I guess I also have to go O.o at new peoples since I never had half the issues some of them do when they try to even hold a bow ^^;; (had issues but... yeah) and I still need to go back to practice since I've probably gotten terrible...

But you make me miss it ^^;;

[tantei-hakuba.livejournal.com]

YOU! You...you..you...FAN!

Thanks to you, do you know what I've been watching for the past week?

Danny Phantom.

Which I've even watched in favor of my programs on Nostrodamus, and I never miss a documentry on Nostrodomus.

*pouts* I blame you for my addiction.

[shade-scribbler.livejournal.com]

I had no idea this was such an issue in SCA. Some of the mos pleasant times I have had at war have been going out to the archery field and watching. I think it is a wonderful spectator sport. Always had a desire to get involved but never had the equipment.

Seems combat archery is an interesting issue, but should be separate. However, treating ANYONE with the kind of disdain described here deserves to be reprimanded.